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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-06-2014 06:46 PM
XRMikey
Re: Driven Clutch

Helpful info about the HELIX in SECONDARY Clutch

I found it very helpful.



Link is same as below, but with pictures:
CLUTCHING Part 3b-Secondary Helix & Pressure Spring Overview - Polaris RZR Forum - RZR Forums.net



N O T E:---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE ANGLES being discussed below SHOULD NOT be confused with the Angle that the Secondary SHEAVES are cut on.(ie. the TAPER of the sheaves). This is a totally separate topic,

There are a number of different Helix setups:

1)Straight vs Multi/Angle

Straight Angle Helix simply means that there is ONLY 1 angle cut into the cam.
Multi Angle Helix means that there are different and varying angles cut in the cam.(these
are primarily to give a harder shiftout and not lose RPM on the top end.

2)Progressive vs Compound – Terminology Difference, the main distinction is how the
Angles are cut into the Helix.

To order to attempt to describe the different cuts, I am going to use the “S” helix angle of: 66 56 33

A true progressive angle cut would have the 66 degree angle at the top of the ramp and the 56 degree angle at the bottom of the ramp. The angles between the top and bottom are would then be equally divided down the ramp angle.

A compound angle cut would start with the 66 angle at the top of the ramp and stay at that angle for a specified distance down the ramp 33 %, then the degree of angle cut would move rapidly toward the bottom of the ramp ending with 56 degree angle.

There are MANY different variations and/or combinations of the above. Many can be purchased PRE-CUT or you could design your own and have someone like Team Industries(main supplier of springs/helix) make one for you.

Helix Ramp Angle (cut) Picture



GENERAL RULE OF THUMB FOR HELIX SELECTION

Trail Riding – TRUE Progressive – usually faster backshift(low & mid range), smoother upshift, due to the fact that it will stay in a steeper angle longer into the mid range

Drag Racing - COMPOUND Progressive – might accelerate faster, BUT Harder holeshot, normally slower backshift, not as responsive on/off acceleration after you are moving.

GENERAL RULE OF THUMB FOR HELIX ANGLES

The Steeper the angle at the beginning and end of the ramp cut would cause the clutch to Uphift and Accelerate FASTER, BUT, would have a SLOWER Backshift and not be as responsive to throttle changes.

The Smaller the angle would cause a SLOWER Upshift, BUT, should provide a FASTER Backshift

Another way to look at the Helix angles could be to compare them to Coarse or Fine threads on a bolt. If you have Coarse(meaning that the threads are at a LARGER angle) threads on your bolt, it would tighten up faster.
SO, LARGER angles would open the sheaves faster and would requireLESS force.
SMALLER angles would open the sheaves more slowly and would require MORE force.

IF YOU JUST LOOKING for a GENERAL all around riding setup, then probably the Smaller Helix angles would be the best choice.


SHEAVE ANGLE - B O T H….Primary and Secondary Clutches

Both the Primary & Secondary clutches contains 2 sheaves each. A fixed and a moveable sheave. The ANGLE or TAPER of these sheaves is Preset/Determined by the manufacturer. This determination MAY NOT be the BEST, since this clutch may be used in a wide variety of difference machines. THIS is what BEAN COUNTER’s call COST CONTAINMENT. Basicly we can’t do a thing about this(not entired TRUE statement), but we will not go into that topic in this discussion.
The Angle(taper)of the sheaves in the Primary Clutch is in theory the following:
With the smaller angle at the bottom of the sheave, this should increase the belt grip at
Lower gear ratios, when the clutch/belt contact area is the least. As the belt moves up
Sheaves, the angle is increasing and so is the belt contact area.
The Angle(taper) of the sheaves in the Secondary Clutch partially controls the belt
pressure as the Drive belt is being pulled into the sheaves.




Top View of a Helix

Normally if the Helix is an Off the Shelf variety, the ramp angles are stamped onto the top of the helix.

One will notice a Large Cut Out at the beginning of the ramp. This is the
EBS (engine braking system) Notch


The torque is transferred thru these ramp angles and work against sliding buttons/rollers that are located in the moveable sheave. The type of angle as well as the degree slope of the angle influence the side pressure that is applied to the belt.
Smaller(shallow) Angles = MORE Side Force(less belt slip)good Backshift,SLOWS Upshift
Larger(steeper) Angles = LESS Side Force(some belt slip at Full Shiftout,MORE /faster Upshift
Now that’s the simple explanation, however if you get into the nuts/bolts of the equation, so to speak, you have to also consider the ramp radius in addition to the ramp angle.



PRESSURE SPRING in the SECONDARY Clutch

The pressure spring in the Secondary Clutch has 2 basis functions. The following is an example of how to determine the springs’ rating. The functioning of this spring is quite similar to the one in the Primary Clutch.
Ex. Spring is rated as a 105/185



The 1st number represents the ft/lbs at the Load Height. It is this side pressure that the Primary Clutch must overcome before the belt starts being drawn into the sheaves on Secondary clutch. This can also be called Pre-tension. So a Higher # means that MORE
force will have to be generated to open the sheaves AND more RPM’s are required to overcome the extra Tension.
The 2nd number represents the ft/lbs at the Compressed Height. This rating controls to some extent belt pressure, BUT, more specifically Backshift. In addition, the Secondary spring MAY have a higher rate if Unusually Tall or Heavy tires are being used on the machine. The reason being is that with the above you are already starting out in a Higher
gear and by increasing the spring pressure, you are in fact, HOLDing the Clutch back in a lower gear.

Normally springs are used with higher rates when higher horsepower mandates more pretension.

GENERAL RULE OF THUMB for Secondary Spring

HIGHER rate springs provide MORE belt squeeze and make Backshifting faster.

If you’re into Drag Racing or all out acceleration, then a LIGHTER rate spring should be used, for the opposite reason above.

If you want to increase the sideforce or pressure on the Drive belt, Use a spring with a Higher Pretension and a Higher rating.
However, one must be on guard, as mentioned earlier, that TOO much belt pressure leads to inefficiency and loss of performance/speed.



One should also check the cam buttons as well as the large bushing sliding on the shaft.
Both, if damaged or worn can cause addition friction, causing poor response as well as the amount of time it takes to slow down and accelerate out of a curve.
08-27-2014 08:09 PM
tyroniebalony
Re: Driven Clutch

I know. Bad carma. But I'm glad it's lasted this long. I put it through some abuse on the dunes. Usually always pegged to the floor. Someday I'd like a bigger single seater with more travel like the bigger buggies so I can fly faster and jump longer.
08-26-2014 06:20 PM
sandracer1
Re: Driven Clutch

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyroniebalony View Post
I have had my revolt for two years now and I'm running the same belt when I bought it. I sand drag it at my clubs track for two years and ride up to Silver Lake dunes in Michigan. I think that my alignment is pretty good.



oooohhhhhhh, you better put another belt in the car now. Comment like that it will let go the next time you go out.



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08-26-2014 04:04 PM
tyroniebalony
Re: Driven Clutch

I have had my revolt for two years now and I'm running the same belt when I bought it. I sand drag it at my clubs track for two years and ride up to Silver Lake dunes in Michigan. I think that my alignment is pretty good.
08-25-2014 10:06 PM
Easy E
Re: Driven Clutch

Don't always blame belt failure on alignment. Your primary and possibly secondary clutch could need maintenance. A shredded belt can leave strands imbedded in the primary or secondary and hinder movement. At the minimum, disassemble the primary/secondary clutches and insure all parts are in spec and move freely. If you're unfamiliar, take the primary off and take it to a reputable clutch builder and have it gone through (SLP in Idaho). They all need rebuilding sooner or later...
08-25-2014 08:16 PM
XRMikey
Re: Driven Clutch

That's where I'm at now. But I carry two belts. I'm directing my attention to the motor. Gonna try to stabilize the center to center a bit more if I can.
08-25-2014 08:05 PM
WFO
Re: Driven Clutch

Just alighn it the best you can set the snubber tight up against engine and carry a sparrrre belt
just my 2 cents
08-25-2014 05:35 PM
XRMikey
Re: Driven Clutch

They shred. It seems to happen only at extended full throttle runs.
If I'm pinned I get less than 1/4 mile of life.
If I run it auround 45-50 mph. no more, it will go about 50-100 miles. Maybe more.
I have then seen the outer part of the belt chunk off. Around 2" down to the chords. I'm contributing that to possibly a rock or some other sort of aggressive contact.
If I run it mellow it seems to be fine. Clutch is cool to the touch even after running 45+ miles. I just can't run it wide open. It actually feels like it's possibly slipping. Similar to tires getting & losing hookup.
08-25-2014 03:53 AM
sandracer1
Re: Driven Clutch

I have been getting about 1 full season out of my belts. Like you said there are so many variable. Motor shift and belt tension and alignment being to true issue I think. I watch my sheave temps close. When my belts start stretching my clutches run hot. Then adjust tension. I run about 1 shim worth of float. 2 might be ok or better. Some have added a support from the frame to the engine cradle. I think this is a good idea. It is on my list. If you are blowing belts on stock hp alot it may be you are having shift out or down shift issues. Does it look like your belts are just "snapping" in half or are they all shredded?



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08-24-2014 06:11 PM
XRMikey
Re: Driven Clutch

Oh, I agree with you on the alignment. I have spent a few hours getting mine dead straight (parallel) as well as the offset and at the same time trying to establish the center to center measurement. But all that being correct. Do you think the revolts have enough float? I did some more searching around & there are sled racers that don't even run shims. But that's also racing. I'm thinking if our set up is only about .040 float would it be wise to get the alignment perfect & remove the float or.... if our engines move to much and also twist a bit, maybe we should set up the float to around .080-.090,
The center to center shift is also a concern. If the motor rotates back we loose that. I really hate going through belts so I'm trying to figure out a way to get any possible damaging misalignment out of the system.
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